Customerland
Customerland is a podcast about …. Customers. How to get more of them. How to keep them. What makes them tick. We talk to the experts, the technologies and occasionally, actual people – you know, customers – to find out what they’re all about.So if you’re a CX pro, a loyalty marketer, a brand owner, an agency planner … if you’re a CRM & personalization geek, if you’re a customer service / CSAT / NPS nerd – you finally have a home.
Customerland
Transforming Insights into Strategic, Actionable Storylines
In this episode, we sit down with Brett Townsend, SVP of Strategy at Quester, to talk about brand storytelling and how empathy and conflict can shape consumer engagement. Brett shares his perspective from his book "Insights on the Brink," discussing the changing landscape of the insights industry.
We explore Quester's approach to brand and innovation consultancy, offering practical advice on how to use strategic insights effectively. Brett also addresses the challenges insights departments face, like how to generate revenue and separate valuable consumer insights from the flood of data. Drawing on his experience at Frito-Lay, he explains why using narratives to present insights can have a real impact on ROI and sales.
We'll also touch on the debate between customer experience and loyalty and look at how senior leadership can build a truly consumer-focused culture. Brett's insights and stories highlight the importance of business know-how and how to make insights truly actionable. Tune in for a straightforward conversation about market research and its role in shaping business strategy.
Our brains are not wired to remember numbers, they're wired to remember stories. What is it that motivates us, as humans, to action? You know, it's empathy. It's understanding someone and then wanting to do something about it. When we tell our stories, what's the most important part of the story? Hint, it's the conflict, you know. Think of your favorite book or TV show or movie. What is it that really drives the storyline? It's conflict, and so we need to understand what the consumer conflict is and then how our brand overcomes, helps the protagonist who we have empathy for, you know, the hero or the heroine of. How does our brand help them overcome that conflict?
Mike Giambattista:Today on Customer Land, brett Townsend, who's SVP of strategy at Quester, and we're going to get into what Quester is and does in a little bit. I'll ask Brett for a better description than I could certainly give. But first of all, brett, thanks for joining me. I really appreciate it.
Brett Townsend:Thanks, mike, I'm happy to be here.
Mike Giambattista:So a couple of things just to kind of set context for this conversation. Brett is co-author with president of Quester, a guy named Tim Hoskins, on a new book called Insights on the Brink, which is a really, really interesting series of takes on what's happening in the insights industry, good and bad, and what can be done to fix the bad and amplify the good. And I'm dying to get into that because, as Brett and I were just talking about a minute ago, I have some opinions. I'm interested to see whether any of them are any good. So this should be a good conversation. So, brett, maybe just again for context, tell us a little about what Quester is and your role there.
Brett Townsend:Sure, quester is a brand and innovation consultancy firm where we work with really strategic-minded people on mainly brand building consulting, using insights as the backbone for that strategy. But we don't really call ourselves a full-service supplier or anything like, because it's not about doing research. It's about really developing and creating strategy and then consulting around that. So we work with brands, big and small, all different types of work and my role is really in a strategic position, not just to help develop more of that competency for Quester, but to work in that strategic component with our clients because of my 15-year corporate career and having been at some of those high levels within insights and marketing and strategy, to be able to help consult our clients on not just what type of work to do but what to do with it. When you have it, how do you seed it within an organization, how do you work cross-functionally, how do you sell it up into senior management A lot of those types of things that I've learned over the course of my career.
Mike Giambattista:So, in looking over your site and some of the materials that your team sent over, yeah, even though that the book is clearly about the insights industry and even though your background has a lot to do with the insights industry, it was interesting to me that Quester's approach to go-to-market strategies, to strategy overall, has an insights component, a strong insights, but that's not really all the company seems to be about. It seems like a kind of a much broader, more holistic approach.
Brett Townsend:And that's very purposeful, you know it's. I was a client of Questor's for 12 years, going back to my early days at PepsiCo, and then it just when I decided I was going to leave the corporate side. It was never a question of really where I wanted to go. I wanted to come and work with Questor just because of that, one of my favorite agencies to work with, because it was a very holistic, big picture strategy type thinking, not just doing projects for me, and so it's a very natural fit for the way I believe and kind of as we segue into the book, I mean it's we walk the walk. You know we live the principles of the book in in developing the kind of evolutionary strategy in the way that we feel the industry needs to be going.
Mike Giambattista:So I hope you'll take this comment the right way, because you could certainly take it the wrong way.
Mike Giambattista:But you know, especially in this political environment, everybody's got a memoir that's trashing what could have been or should have been, and I kind of I'll be really honest with you I saw the early kind of messaging on the book Insights on the Brink and I thought, well, here we go. There's people looking back on, you know, on their careers going well, here we go, as people looking back on, you know, uh, on their careers going well, you know what could have, should have, you know might've been, except for uh, only to find out that's really not the case at all. It's really about uh from people who are actively working in uh the industry and have led certain aspects of this industry. So I would say it's a much more active approach than a, than a look back. Having said that, what, what were the factors that caused you to want to spend the time and energy? And it's significant to write a book like this.
Brett Townsend:Yeah, it was based on a keynote address that I gave back in 2019 that I had a lot of people tell me hey, you ought to blow that out and turn it into something and even perhaps write a book about it, because it's things that the industry needs to hear. And it's just simply based on mine and Tim's over 20 plus years each experience in this industry and where we see it is where we see it could go. What are the things that are holding it back? And it really is kind of a passion project from two people who love this industry, who want to see it in the place that it deserves, just realizing that there are a few things holding us back that go back decades, that for some reason, we're just holding on to.
Brett Townsend:Some people don't even realize what we're doing, but just it. We wanted to spark conversations, mostly within the industry, about how we can evolve and that we need to evolve, because we're seeing insights being marginalized in a lot of big companies around the world because senior executives either don't think it's effective or the insights or departments are focusing on the wrong things, and consumer insights can be incredibly powerful they're behind the greatest product and marketing creations that we've ever seen. But when we get too far away from really what we should be doing and we think that we're in this just doing work, doing research, working on methodologies that's when we start to lose our way, and so that's really why we wanted to do this as you said, working practitioners that want to see the insights community kind of take the place that it deserves.
Mike Giambattista:Yeah, I would add to that that you know, a lot of times the insights work is it's you can't find a direct ROI, you can find some very definite indirect ROI.
Mike Giambattista:But sometimes tracing the success of a brand or a brand launch or a new product or new service right back to the insights, knowing that there's a lot of other links in the chain from insights into the market space sometimes it gets a little lost there, and I know because I've seen it, I've certainly experienced it myself is, you know, when it's budget cut time, when it's that part of the cyclical environment, your industry's in, the first things to go are ad budget, followed almost immediately by insights, followed by anything related to marketing that doesn't have a direct ROI impact, and they just keep chopping down the road like that. So finding those direct ROIs, or at least creating a narrative where the ROI can be attributed, is going to be an interesting thing to, to kind of meet out with you. Can you elaborate on some of those things? You you named them as hurdles. You know things that that the that the industry needs to overcome, that it isn't right now or isn't positioned to, isn't thinking about? What are those things specifically?
Brett Townsend:Well, you know what? Let's start with that comment that you just made. I think the fact that insights traditionally has been so focused on doing research that we don't take the time to really show how valuable our work is. You know, like we're helping our marketing teams market our brands, but we're terrible at marketing our own work and it's. It's not easy, but it's absolutely possible that we can, that we can directly trace great insights work to the success of a product or a marketing campaign or things. And it's once you, once you start to be able to track that it is, it becomes much easier and much easier to show ROI, and I think that's one of the reasons to your point that insights is one of the first things that gets cut is that we haven't really established ourselves as working dollars, as something that is contributing to sales. We're basically non working dollars. You know we're a cost center. In the eyes of a lot of people, we're really, when Insights is done very well. It is a contributor to revenue and that should.
Brett Townsend:And I think that's one of the main hurdles is that how do we view what we do? You know we talk Insights professionals talk about our industry in terms of the work. We do not. What we should be focusing on, which is making companies money period. I mean, that should be the number one focus.
Brett Townsend:I think another hurdle is that we are too focused on the dogma of methodology.
Brett Townsend:You know, our industry was founded by clinicians and academics going all the way back to the 1930s, and a lot of the methodologies that they used back then are still in use today, in a far different business climate than when they were developed, and so we think that methodologies are what we do when really we're here to solve problems and answer questions that end up making companies money.
Brett Townsend:So I think those are just some of the really low hurdles, but for some reason we keep tripping over them a lot. And then I think the final hurdle is to realize what truly is consumer insight and what is data. You know we confuse data with insight. We have so much data, we have so much information, but we a lot of companies don't have great insight, great human empathy, great consumer understanding. We don't have that. We just have mounds of data and we don't know how to tell stories from it or interpret it, and it's definitely not an insight. So I think when you talk about you know we've got a number of hurdles that we talk about in the book, but I think those are the main ones and if we can just overcome those and start to evolve past that it's going to set our industry up so much better for the future.
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Mike Giambattista:I'm thinking right now I've got a couple of close friends who are in the insights industry and I've watched their careers. Both these people, I'm thinking, are very successful in that world, but their departments respectively, have been shuffled around in the org chart a couple of times. It's been really interesting to see. I come from a marketing and creative background and I know for me I'm and having the insights people, that proximity to what I was working on, the direct interactions with insights people affected and informed everything I was doing really nicely, I would say, which is a beautiful thing, and so to me that's a really natural kind of location within the org chart.
Mike Giambattista:On the other hand, over the past I don't know three or four years, whatever that period has been since I've been watching this stuff I've seen insights departments get moved to under strategy, which could make some sense. I think it makes lots of sense. I've seen them pulled out of strategy and kind of made a part of marketing. And then I've seen I've also seen insights groups kind of pulled out of marketing and just kind of bolted onto sales.
Mike Giambattista:And you know, so it sort of seemed to me and this, all this is actually one company that they recognized some sort of value that the group was providing, but we're not really able to figure out its most natural home where it could best benefit the organization overall. And I don't know if that's unique. You might have a better view to that than I do, but just watching these couple of people go okay, uh, now I'm part of, I'm part of sales and I have to you know, I have to kind of change my remit, as it were, like here's what I do, the core functions of what I do are kind of the same, but now I have to kind of, uh, what's the right word here? I?
Mike Giambattista:basically master with, serve a a different master and create a different kind of storyline that tells the value of what I do or something like that. Does that make any sense?
Brett Townsend:Yeah, it does, and I've even seen a consumer insights group under product development as well. So it depends on the philosophy of the company where they feel the most value is. Now that is a little unique for one company to move around their insights department as much as your friends, and that just shows that leadership doesn't really like you said. They see value but they don't quite know the value yet. Or they think there's a value but they don't quite know the value yet, or they don't. Or they think there's a value but they haven't quite seen it, and so they're trying to find the right place for it. And so you know, a lot of people in our industry will blame senior leadership for something like that. And I think one of the tones of the book is is that you know what we need to look inward, and it's real lazy to blame other people. And when you talk about you know you go to a relationship therapist and they'll say you change yourself before you can worry because you can't change your partner. And I think that's really a lot of the tone of the book is that, you know, if our opinion, you know, is that if, if insights was really showing their value, if they were really developing, if they were showing their ROI, if they were really developing insight that led to sales, there wouldn't be that kind of shuffling around because their value would be evident, moving it around to find the value.
Brett Townsend:Because really, consumer insights works cross, cross-functionally with more departments than anyone else in a company. You know they work with marketing, with sales, with product development, with post-purchase customer service, with a lot of different areas where other parts of the company don't work as cross-functionally as they do. And so it doesn't really matter where you place them. It really matters on what you demand from them and what you expect from them, and that is we need actionable insights that lead to making money. Whether that's developing products, developing messaging, helping our sales team sell in the product, it doesn't matter. And everybody should love insights, everybody should want to work with insights. You know, like you and like you said with your partner, like you saw that value and you know. And consumer insights should have no natural predators. Basically, right, right and. But we do, and we've become the threat to our own existence because of the way that we've operated.
Mike Giambattista:It reminds me a little bit and I do think there are some parallels here to the CX world, which is an invaluable component of any company's especially a consumer-oriented company's efforts to gain and retain customers. But it's not much like the insights functions. It's often seen as a cost center. They recognize the cross-functional value. But the CX leaders are also kind of getting shuffled around the org chart because it hasn't found the right home. It almost seems like there needs to be a kind of new category within the org chart because hasn't found the right home. It almost seems like you know the there. There needs to be a kind of new category within the org chart that just describes cross-functional services. You know that it's not really a spot within the org chart, it's something that is more intertwined. I don't know. Let's not get into that because I really don't know what I'm talking about there.
Mike Giambattista:But, if we can, let's talk a little bit about some of the ways that insights professionals, insights groups can start to overcome some of these things.
Brett Townsend:Sure. So I think it really is a mindset shift, is the first part of what really we we focus on. The mindset, mindset shift of I am here to make this company money, period. I'm not here to do projects, I'm not here to be a methodology expert, I'm not here to gather data, I'm not here to talk to consumers, I am here to make the company money. So once you have that, then it really kind of cascades down from there.
Brett Townsend:The second thing, the second mindset shift there we go, is to not focus so much on methodology and again that is something that's been passed down from our forefathers for decades is that we're here to solve problems, answer questions, develop products, tell great stories, develop consumer empathy for the humans that we serve, find solutions. Because of that empathy that we have, we're not doing methodology. And so when we think that methodology is the most important thing, then it kind of just puts us in this dogma of just doing work rather than looking at that bigger picture and saying let's really figure out what we're trying to solve here and not really start with the methodology but end with the methodology. And then I, you know there's I think there's a lot of things in the book and I want to kind of keep these answers short and concise. I think the other thing too is just realize about how we present. You know, there's a lot of times we get a report back from a project that we do and it's one report and we deliver it to everybody, to everybody.
Brett Townsend:And we have to realize that our cross functional partners don't need to know everything. Like there's a saying that I have, that I have in the book, where it says I don't need to know everything you know, I just need to know what I need to know. And I would tell my agencies that when I was on the corporate side and then the further up the ladder I went, the more that became true my CMO didn't need to know everything I know. The CEO definitely didn't need to know everything I know.
Brett Townsend:One of my favorite experiences was when I was at Frito-Lay. Al Carey, who was the CEO of Frito-Lay at the time, told a few of us in Insights. He said if you can't tell me your story in three slides, you don't have a story. And it wasn't cram as much junk on three slides as you could, but it was like be concise. When you come and talk to me, tell me what the insight is what I need to go do about, and so I think just tailoring our presentations to our audience will do a tremendous amount of of good for us as far as communicating the right message to the right people.
Mike Giambattista:You've mentioned this a couple of times already in this conversation. But the idea that data is storytelling or that insights folks could really benefit from understanding how to build stories out of the data those are my words, not yours, but the idea is there, and I'm a huge believer in that. I absolutely believe it. I think people form opinions and feelings based on narratives. You know that's. You know your value is is is in a different construct of what you do.
Brett Townsend:You know, we've had this conversation with some people and my first question it was kind of like Ronald Reagan when he was, uh, you know, running against Jimmy Carter. That's a very dated example, but he's like how, when he was, you know, running against Jimmy Carter, that's a very dated example, but he's like, how's that work for you, you know, are you better off now than you were before?
Brett Townsend:And the answer is always no, you know, and like how has that worked for you? You know, when you're up there presenting methodology and presenting numbers, how did, how has that worked for you? You know, do you get a lot of people asking a lot of questions because they don't know what you're talking about? Do things not get actioned upon? Are you moving the needle anywhere? And the answer is usually no. And so I think that's, and we just kind of it's a process. We talk to people. Our brains are not wired to remember numbers, they're wired to remember stories.
Brett Townsend:What is it that motivates us as humans to action? You know, it's empathy, it's understanding someone and then wanting to do something about it. When we tell our stories, what's the most important part of the story? Hint, it's the conflict. You know. Think of your favorite book or TV show or movie. What is it that really drives the storyline? It's conflict. And so we need to understand what the consumer conflict is. And then how our brand overcomes, helps the protagonist who we have empathy for, you know, the hero or the heroine of the story. How does our brand help them overcome that conflict? And it's just, it's, the elements are there. It's not as if people in the insights industry are doing it all wrong or just like completely backwards and have to do a total 180. It's just a reframing of what we do and a refocusing on okay, I'm not here to present numbers or do research. I'm here to tell empathetic stories that deliver revenue, and the elements are all there. It's just how do we go about doing it?
Mike Giambattista:I'd love to sit in on one of your strategy sessions as you're talking to these people about this reframed mindset, Because I know firsthand, again because of my background, and I would say in some level I'm a storyteller because I needed to be.
Brett Townsend:Well, you're a marketer, you are a storyteller, for sure.
Mike Giambattista:I got better at it when I started factoring in actual data and insights. But you know, watching people kind of reconfigure their mindsets is always an interesting process, as light bulbs start to go off in the room and say, oh wait a second, this isn't. This isn't me changing what I do. It's simply changing how I tell the story about what I do.
Brett Townsend:It's pretty powerful, yeah, and there's an example that I that I included in the book that I'll just briefly tell you is like when I was at PepsiCo. I was, I had a global role for a couple of years and went over to Europe and met with one of the marketing insights leads of a country and and I was there for another reason but she was really distressed kind of, when I got there and I said, hey, what's going on? And she said, well, I just had a meeting with our GM of the country and it didn't go well and he didn't do anything that we recommended. And I said, well, why don't you show me your, your presentation and what you showed her? What you showed her and as she went through it, it was just all data, it was just all charts. And so I just started asking her what did you actually tell him to do? What was the actual recommendation you made? What was the story you were telling?
Brett Townsend:And as she went through it, she's like, oh my gosh, I really didn't tell him to do anything. And I said, okay, so let's turn it off for a second. I said, just talk to me, don't show me slides or anything else, just talk to me what did you learn from this? What is the action, what's the story behind all this? And so, as she started telling me all this, I said Okay, that's your presentation. I said you know what, before we start on the reason why I'm even here in the first place, go and get another appointment with him, you know, and ask him if you can represent.
Brett Townsend:And so she went, got another appointment and then we spent the next couple of hours with her team going through and rebuilding that presentation and all of the information was there just needed to be reorganized and retold in a way that worked. So then two days later she represents it totally clear as day. Gm says this is great. I agree with you, let's move forward. And it really wasn't that they hadn't done their job collecting the information, it was just how they told it. So that was a really great experience that I had of what you just said just reframing, rethinking and then realizing, oh, this is what works, this is what they want to see, and so, and then I remember getting emails later down the road saying you know, we do that now with every presentation. That's made such a difference. It's just one little change of how you look at things.
Mike Giambattista:It's storytelling 101 applied to some serious insights. I love it, I love it, you know, to some some serious insights. I love it, I love it. You know, one of the things that, uh, that occurred to me as I was thinking about this conversation over the prior couple of days here is that, um, especially after I read the first couple of chapters of the book, is, I think you, you, you frame up and I hope I'm not misspeaking here I think you're framing up the industry, as you know, in a kind of a dangerous spot.
Mike Giambattista:The companies that own these insights groups may not see the value, may not see the value long-term, and there's some danger in that. You know, you're, you're expendable. If that's really the way you're seeing and in my own world I've, I can tell you that what I do for a living hasn't really changed a whole lot in a long time. I mean, it's, you know, different flavors of the same thing, but what it's called now is something different than what it was called five years ago, 10 years ago or or, you know, go back further, cause you could, in my case, um, and it's, it's almost not entirely, but it's almost entirely a function of of how you describe yourself. Um, you know, and I'm thinking of of concepts like, especially if I'm an insights professional and I'm feeling undervalued, uh, how do I start describing what I do at its essence? And I'm thinking of, um, you know, you're, you are very much branding experts, just based on what you understand about how, how your consumers are responding to you and the marketplace. Um, you're very much go to market experts. Although you may not have the channel expertise, everything that goes into defining those channels and what goes out into them is derived directly from what you're doing. And you know, and I think, like what you said, it's about attaching yourself narratively to a direct ROI, to the fact that you're making sales happen, and whatever the language of the moment seems to dictate is something worth looking at.
Mike Giambattista:And just to extend this a little bit further, I can remember I was at an event oh gosh, probably seven years ago. It was a loyalty event and there was kind of a mock debate but it wasn't really a mock debate that they set up about CX versus loyalty. They were both at this kind of stage in their growth curve and the question was which one will assume and overtake the other. Is it going to be a loyalty world? And CX fits underneath it, or is it going to be a CX world and loyalty fits underneath of it?
Mike Giambattista:And the mock debate was great fun, but it was only mock in the sense that nobody really wanted to ask it as a serious question. And, and in the end, if you look back, you know, or look ahead now, seven years or whatever it is. In the end, if you look back, you know or look ahead now, seven years or whatever it is in the future, they're very distinct with, with entirely different vocabularies describing them, but at one point you know that's just the way you needed to think about how these two entities operated and I just wonder if is it really just a matter of the language we're using? It's? It's a question more than an answer.
Brett Townsend:It's less of the language we're using, I think, and more of the emphasis or the focus of the company. So this is where I will say that senior leadership's job, and something that I feel is their responsibility, is to set a consumer-centric culture throughout the organization, to make the entire organization responsible for the consumer and not just consumer insights and maybe a little bit to marketing. I mean, jeff Bezos, to me, is the greatest example of this, because he said from the very beginning we are customer obsessed. Everything we do is going to focus on the customer, and the thing is that doesn't sound great in an earnings call for most people because you can't in many cases attach a financial number to it and investors don't really want to hear that. But it started at Amazon from the top, and there's other companies that we know that have that have done this very thing.
Brett Townsend:But you know, jeff Bezos is very public with his, with his statement about how customer obsessed they are, and it started with him, this consumer centric culture within Amazon. And so your whole thing about should loyalty be under CX or vice versa that's just business semantics. That really doesn't matter who is under who or whatever. The whole thing is consumer insights, whether it's CX or loyalty or anything else. It's all understanding the consumer. And how do you take that empathy that you have for them and turn it into solutions? You know it's not being product centric, it's being consumer centric. You know it's not hey, what's the best product for the customer? It's what's the best solution for the customer. It's all these different things. But it has to start at the top. And because we've seen both where there's some really great CI professionals that try to set that culture, but if it's not within the organization, they're just banging their heads against the wall, whereas we've seen it from the top down, where it absolutely works because it's mandated. You know it's like everybody's going to be in charge and so it's a matter of you know, and.
Brett Townsend:But yet we have to be leaders. You know you talked about where we fall and the problems that are happening with with that, and I think it's to your point. We've always focused so much on what we do and not what we can be or who we are. You know we talked about how we do research, we do analytics, and you know it's really about you know, and what we can be has nothing to do with methodologies or processes, but it has everything to do with being leaders, no matter what our job type is, and so that's really what it's about.
Brett Townsend:We have to develop that great business acumen. We have to know our business, not just consumer insights, but no marketing and supply chain and product development and we have to understand how what we are doing impacts the entire organization. And so if we stay in our little research silo, we're never going to be a leader, no matter how good the research is, because we don't understand how it works within a business context. And so that's one of the things that we talk about is, you know, developing business acumen, really kind of looking at yourself on what we are and what we can be, and not just what we do.
Mike Giambattista:There's a it reminds me of this, this great saying. You were talking about your CEO at one point, sitting you down and saying, if you can't boil it down to three slides, and what an invaluable lesson that's been for you. This one was something I had to chew on for a little bit. It was a guy who ran a uh actually a huge nonprofit at the time, and uh was sitting there meeting with him about some of the things that me and my group were working on for him and he said essentially what I think you're saying is I need you to stop focusing on outputs and start focusing on outcomes.
Brett Townsend:Absolutely, and because what's happening is is that CEOs are outsourcing insights because they don't. They're not getting outcomes from their insights people. They're getting research and data and so they're going to BCG and Bain and some of the big consulting firms because they're focused on outcomes. And guess what? Those firms are hiring market research firms to do the market research part of it to basically do that job, and so it is all about outcomes. You're absolutely right.
Mike Giambattista:Well, brett, this is the beginning, I hope, of a series of conversations on a fascinating topic about let's just I'll repackage this and say it's not so much about what's wrong with the market research world, but it's about understanding the value that market research and consumer insights can bring into the broader effects of the company. But just to reiterate, insights on the Brink, co-authored by Brett Townsend and Tim Hoskins of Quester I'll have a link to that below the podcast. But thank you, and I hope we can do this again.
Brett Townsend:Oh, I would love to. I would love to Thanks Mike for having me.
