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Customerland
When Empathy Burns Out: The Hidden Cost of Compassion Fatigue
What happens to the people who protect our digital spaces from the worst humanity has to offer? Rachel Lutz-Gavara, Division VP of Trust and Safety at TaskUs, joins Customer Land to explore the invisible toll of content moderation and frontline customer work.
As a licensed mental health professional, Rachel brings unique clinical expertise to corporate wellness. She reveals how compassion fatigue—the emotional cost of caring—manifests in frontline workers through subtle signs like reduced empathy, detachment, and performance issues that are often misdiagnosed as productivity problems. Rather than treating these as HR matters, Rachel advocates for a clinical approach that recognizes the true nature of the challenge.
TaskUs has pioneered a comprehensive psychological safety program that moves far beyond token wellness initiatives like yoga classes and motivational posters. Their evidence-based approach embeds mental health support throughout the employee lifecycle—from transparent hiring practices to neuroscience-based resilience training and continued support even after employment ends. This systematic approach has produced remarkable results: teams with wellness support show 3x better performance metrics, 4x higher customer satisfaction, and 50% lower attrition rates.
The conversation challenges conventional thinking about corporate wellness by demonstrating that psychological safety isn't just an ethical imperative—it's smart business. As younger generations enter the workforce with expectations of employer investment in mental health, companies building truly resilient workplaces gain competitive advantage while saving millions in retraining costs.
Whether you manage support teams, content moderators, or any frontline staff, this episode offers crucial insights into detecting early warning signs of compassion fatigue and implementing effective interventions that benefit both employees and the bottom line. Dive into the science of workplace resilience and discover how treating mental health as systematically as physical safety creates environments where both people and businesses thrive.
If you think about frontline environments like content moderation, healthcare, even customer support, this could look like performance issues, increased absenteeism, irritability, maybe even emotional outbursts and or more subtle manifestations like disengagement or feeling like they feel like there's no purpose in the work that they do, or feeling like you know they feel like there's no purpose in the work that they do. So, you know, I think sometimes businesses get this wrong because they do treat it like a productivity issue when it really is a clinical issue.
Speaker 2:Today, on Customer Land, Rachel Lutz-Gavara, who is Division VP of Trust and Safety at Task Us and I think I probably just want to let the title hang in the air for a minute, because there's a lot that kind of well, it begs a lot of questions, but there's an awful lot that gets kind of rolled up into that Before we get into any of that stuff. Rachel, thanks for joining me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Of course, I'm super thrilled to be here and chat a little bit about Taskus, trust and safety and all things customer experience today.
Speaker 2:So this is going to be really good. Your team and my team me have been trading information back and forth for several weeks actually, just to kind of prepare for this and hone in on really where we wanted to go. In the end, though, I think there's so much to talk about that I'm ready to toss away the format and the outline and the show script and just kind of go for it, because there really is some interesting stuff here. But just to set context, can you tell us about what Taskus is and does and where you do it?
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. So Taskus is a digital outsourcing company. We specialize in customer experience services, content moderation and AI operations with some of the world's most innovative companies some of the world's most innovative companies. Taskus has been around since 2008, I believe, and was founded by Bryce Maddock and Jasper Weir, who are still actively involved in the company as CEO and president. We're headquartered in New Braunfels and have a global workforce of roughly about, I think, 60,000 employees now, which is crazy, because I've been at Taskus for about six and a half years myself and when I started, I think, the company had like 14,000 employees, so it's exponentially accelerated since I arrived. So we offer, you know, a comprehensive suite of services that are tailored to meet like a lot of client needs. So think digital customer experience, trust and safety, ai and data services, financial crime and compliance, learning as a service all sorts of things. We do it. So we're kind of a bit of a jack of all trades and we do all these things really well in my opinion, which is why I've been here for almost seven years.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sure you do everything very well in your portfolio. Now, based on that whole kind of breadth of services and spaces, are there any of those places where Task Us has a deeper, bigger footprint, or is it kind of like we do everything, everything?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think you know the bulk of our business is in that digital customer experience space, but rapidly behind it and growing is where I work, which is in trust and safety. Trust and safety accounts for about a quarter of our business at this point and just continues to accelerate from a growth perspective, and trust and safety really is about how do we help create and maintain safe and positive environments, especially in online places, to prevent any sort of like harmful or disrupted behavior. So we work with a variety of clients to help them navigate things like harassment on their platforms, fraud, misinformation, inappropriate content, and just make sure that the platforms that we all use on a regular, daily basis are safe for users to interact, create, shop without any fear of any abuse happening. So I would say that that's another area of expertise that the business really has leaned into and growth has accelerated around trust and safety a lot in the last few years.
Speaker 2:Can you tell us kind of how that looks operationally? How is trust and safety managed?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean typically, you know we have clients coming to us looking for support to outsource work related to the management of things like social. The platform expects, from a behavior standpoint and or policy adherence, integrity stays sound and that if you and I are going on to a platform that we expect to not, you know, be harassed, or we expect to be able to buy a good that is accurately described and not fake, for example, or that our identity is not going to be compromised, or that we're not met with scams, things like that, so that's kind of what our frontline workers help to support with a variety of different clients across the trust and safety ecosystem.
Speaker 2:So that would look like human content moderation, for lack of a better term.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to some degree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Okay, I mean you know plus digital content moderation.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, so we have people doing this work kind of oversee more complex, nuanced issues that are happening on platforms to you know, appropriately enforce the rules and terms and conditions of whatever the platform is that we're working on.
Speaker 2:This will absolutely take us off track, but I'm dying to go there. Okay, but I'm dying to go there, okay, considering the some of the current administration's moves that I don't know if they were directly related, but certainly indirectly related. Some of the larger social media platforms rolled back their content, moderation policies and efforts and you know, depending on which side of the aisle you're, you sit on, that was either viewed as a great thing or a horrible thing, but either way, it sounds to me like it's great for task us. You know there's, there's, now there's a there's openings out there that were probably filled internally. The task us can now kind of roll in and scoop up. Do I have that anywhere close to correct?
Speaker 1:I think it depends on the lens in which you're looking at it. Through right. To some degree right, a rollback means that there's always going to continue to be a need for human moderators to ensure that there's sustainability and growth of a platform and safe environments for people to, you know, engage in, whether it's online or in offline spaces. I think you know what the possible negative implications of that is that there's potentially, you know, more concerns around things like protecting marginalized groups. You know the rights of human beings to be protected in some of these digital spaces in the same way that maybe you know existed more so before. So I think it's nuanced, it's not like a yes, it's good, or it's bad.
Speaker 1:It just kind of depends on the lens in which you're looking through it, and we try to look at it through the intersection of, like. You know, how can we make sure that the quality of spaces and the safety of spaces is maintained, regardless of what's happening out in the regulatory space? And while the US may be rolling back some policies, you see the opposite happening in places like the EU, and the reality is that most of the platforms and companies that we work with are global in nature. Platforms and companies that we work with are global in nature, and so there's always going to be some nuances to like where we have to kind of pivot, based on a variety of regulatory systems that are in place around the globe.
Speaker 2:So I'm viewing it as kind of like, you know, a desert of shifting sands. Exactly, the landscape is going to look different tomorrow, but it'll all be there.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:You have to work with me on my analogies a little bit.
Speaker 1:No, you're good, You're good.
Speaker 2:So, um, I have one great big kind of broad topic I want to get into, but I'm just not quite there yet. I, I, I want to talk a little bit more about your role at task us as um, as a mental health professional um, that looks like, because, um, I'm certainly no expert in that area, but I've read enough about it to know that people who are on the front lines moderating this, people who are, you know, I would say, task us employees or contractors, are faced with awful lot of stuff that can be, over time, detrimental and and hard to deal with, just really tough stuff. So, I, you know you've got one of your remits is like making sure that the public, the users out there are, have a safe and friendly environment to execute whatever they're doing. But you've got a global workforce of 60,000 people that you're caring for now. So how does that work, can you? Just what does it look like day to day?
Speaker 1:How did I get here?
Speaker 1:That's a great question. To start with, you're right, I am a licensed mental health professional by trade. My background is really in trauma recovery. Before coming into TASCUS I worked in pretty traditional mental health care functions. So before this, for example, I was working in academia running a student counseling center for the entire student body at a college here in San Antonio, texas. That college happened to be predominantly military-serving and Hispanic serving institution, so we would get a lot of folks coming in using their GI Bill to go back to school and we're dealing with the aftermath of deployment into some of the not-so-far-away engagements in the Middle East and those sorts of things. So that really is my background.
Speaker 1:I was reached out to kind of cold on LinkedIn and I was like what is a task us and what is this? But once I learned more about the opportunity, I was super intrigued. Not only was I asked to help stand up a psychological health and safety program for employees doing the work of content moderation, which does carry innate risks. I was really intrigued about the ability and idea to cascade ideas into other parts of the world where there may be limited to no access to mental health care professionals. Now that's balanced along with cultural nuance, where I never wanted or have the goal to export Western mental health care to the masses. That's not really the idea. But accessibility in education is powerful and can be extremely helpful to people to build resilience to, you know, feel like they're in a good place from a mental health care perspective. So that's what I was asked to do when I came in here, and so I.
Speaker 1:Over the last five years I helped architect the foundations of our psychological health and safety program and have scaled that from having one employee to now having a team of wellness professionals that are 200 plus across about 12 different countries and rapidly continuing to grow. About a year ago I was asked to then take over holistically all of trust and safety, which not only still includes psychological health and safety but also is inclusive of what products and innovations do we want to deploy to also mitigate any sort of harm? What types of policy work do we want to enact or recommend back to our clients to ensure efficiency and sustainability of moderation practices? So it's become more nuanced in the last year, but my passion really lies in making sure that people are protected, they're not going to develop things like secondary traumatic stress as a result of the work that they're doing and that we make sure that we provide resources to communities all over the world that are doing this really difficult work that, in turn, keeps us all safe and able to use systems that we all enjoy.
Speaker 2:So Right now I'm wrestling with, do I just toss away our script and and just kind of go for it? But I don't think that's fair to anybody. On the other hand, you did kind of lead us towards the I would just call it today's big topic, which, just to phrase it, what I'm going to say is compassion fatigue. But it looks so differently depending on who's. You know who's dealing with it.
Speaker 2:You know it's not just how those people are responding to that fatigue, but fatigue comes in a lot of different forms for a lot of different reasons, and so, as I was going back and forth with your team here, it occurred to me that this is an absolute. You know, multifaceted doesn't quite get it. I mean, you're probably dealing with a handful of categories of fatigue that are the same across people, groups and regions and cultures, but then you're probably dealing with a gabillion permutations of those. As you get down into it, I'd really love to hear your thoughts on what it's like to try and, as you said, like to try and, as you said, stand up programs and develop policies that can be effective across so many diverse people and purposes in your organization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and you hit the nail on the head. Compassion fatigue is certainly a possible symptom that can crop up as a result of doing this type of work, and at some point I'd be happy to define what we think compassion fatigue is clinically and in plain terms and how we address it. But I think the initial goal was to assess, like, what is the possible risks? Like, how do we define what the risks are? I don't, before I came in, there wasn't really a clear view in academic literature or publications around what a content moderator's experience was like and what the real risks of the job were. So what we were looking for was, like you know, adjacent type of work type, so what kind of risks are involved in extreme journalism, for example, or detective work or these types of things? To really try to build a framework around this is what we think is probably a result of this type of work. But we really don't know.
Speaker 1:And for me as a clinician, best practices is to deploy research around the topic right. So we did mass scale literature reviews, made some determinations and then we started researching the implementation of our programming. So I've stood up also alongside the mental health professionals that do the direct service delivery, a research arm that actively studies the outcome of the work that we're doing, is the stuff that we're teaching teams and deploying as it relates to the service delivery part of the well-being care that we provide. Is it effective for mitigating things like secondary traumatic stress, mitigating compassion fatigue, improving compassion satisfaction, improving emotion regulation and empathy. So this is what we are always looking at, and Taskus, to my knowledge, is the only outsourcing company that has actually published academic publications in this space we have about seven at this point to really show the impact of our programming and its effectiveness against combating and mitigating any sort of psychological harm that would erupt from exposure to graphic content.
Speaker 2:How do you get to those kind of effectiveness metrics? Because you can't just ask somebody how they're feeling, take that answer, write it in the book. Because you can't just ask somebody how they're feeling, take that answer, write it in the book. There's, you know, you have to kind of triangulate your way into the right answers that they're actually feeling. But you know doing that, at the scale at which you all operate, is interesting, so I want to open that up as well, like how do you gauge how effective these programs are?
Speaker 1:Yeah, agreed. So I want I'll be remiss to get super into the weeds about research best practices, because I'm not a clinical researcher and I have a whole team of PhDs that, like, are way more well-versed, and statisticians that you know, ensure ethical standards around research engagements. You know, ensure ethical standards around research engagements, but we make sure that we use valid and reliable methodology in the form of, like, quantitative and qualitative research. You know, to take standardized psychometrics and scales that are already validated tools and reproducible methodologies, and so these are the types of things that we'll do credible interviewing guides and focus groups and you know, all of that sort of stuff to measure effectiveness appropriately, which is why the publications that we have produced are recognized by our academic peers, because we're ensuring, you know, valid and reliable methodology around research, ensuring representative sampling using IRB boards all that sort of stuff that you would expect in, like, an actual lab. Those are the things that we're doing here.
Speaker 2:So so let's step out of academia and research for a minute and back into. You know, call it street level content moderation. I'm sorry that probably sounds demeaning, but I don't mean it to be. You know what happens at the front lines. Let's put it that way A little kinder. How do you and your team start to detect compassion fatigue? What does it look like? I mean, what are the signals and symptoms out there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Let's just talk about in simple terms what it is right. The way to think about compassion fatigue is just the cost of caring, and I think we can all relate to that as human beings. Right? Maybe you've had a friend or a family member that's going through a hard time and they're consistently sharing information with you and it can feel emotionally fatiguing. You maybe take on some of the felt sentiment from that person and it really just comes down to the cost of caring.
Speaker 1:In a clinical sense, we consider it a form of potentially secondary traumatic stress that can emerge when individuals are chronically exposed to other people's suffering without adequate time to recover or get any sort of psychological distance. It's different than burnout. Burnout is a result of, just like prolonged workplace stress, where compassion fatigue is innately trauma-linked and it shows up for people in emotional numbness, feeling detached, maybe having reduced empathy or even cynicism, like if you've ever worked around like I'm married to a police officer if you've ever been around police officers, people that are ENTs or work in hospitals that can look like gallows, humor, right, that kind of stuff. And so these are the types of things that we're assessing on the front line. You may think like, okay, how do you do that in a work setting, in a non-clinical setting?
Speaker 1:Well, if I have employees on the front line actively engaged in responding to emails in real time, you know, or on live phone calls, and you can assess reduced empathy, you can assess lack of attending to a customer and, instead of that becoming putative and metric focus, that's a key to us to say, ooh, is somebody actually dealing with compassion, fatigue, and do we actually need to create intervention strategies instead of something that looks more punitive from like a workforce management type of thing?
Speaker 1:So if you think about frontline environments like content moderation, healthcare, even customer support, this could look like performance issues, increased absenteeism, irritability, look like performance issues, increased absenteeism, irritability, maybe even emotional outbursts and or more subtle, you know, manifestations like disengagement or feeling like you know they feel like there's no purpose in the work that they do. So, you know, I think sometimes businesses get this wrong because they do treat it like a productivity issue when it really is a clinical issue. And there should always be a proactive approach to wellness by like highlighting the importance of self-care and boundary setting and organizational support to build resilience among service professionals.
Speaker 2:So you know I'm sure that compassion fatigue doesn't affect everybody the same way, and so you'll have to look for those signals. But I'm just wondering you know, because Task Us deals with this at such scale if there are some kind of prediction benchmarks, like I'm making this up because I have no idea what I'm talking about here. But you know, somebody is new in the in the job and they're a frontline content moderation person. You know they take I don't know whatever number of hours that they've been sitting there doing that. Can you kind of predict, like, at this point we've got a level a. If you want to escalate and get worse, you've got until you're like a code red somewhere? Are those things predictable and understandable at this point, or do you just have to look for the signals individually?
Speaker 1:No, I think there is some predictability that you can drill down to the individual, but then also look at across teams, look at across campaigns, also look at across teams, look at across campaigns. And so, from a clinical lens, I think people expect that there's. The indicators of this are always dramatic or very obvious, but they're actually not. They're often really small shifts, like changes in language, like somebody going I don't care about that anymore, right? Or reduced participation in like their team huddles or activities, or you know things like that.
Speaker 1:I think what we try to teach our leaders is to look at signs and symptoms through like three different buckets. And why do we engage leaders? Well, leaders are there every day with the team, right, so they're going to notice some of those more subtle warning signs before we are. So we ask them to think about it from like a cognitive perspective, an emotional perspective and a behavioral perspective. Cognitive would be things like oh, this person seems to be having trouble concentrating, or they're forgetful with deadlines or really indecisive. Emotional could be like maybe they notice some more irritability or emotional bluntness or gallows humor, like we talked about. And then behavioral would be like this person's calling out all the time or they're having all this unplanned leave and they're withdrawing from team activities.
Speaker 1:So we have a system in place where we do pretty standardized bystander intervention training.
Speaker 1:We're not empowering leaders to diagnose but to notice deviations from someone's baseline, and that's at the individual level, right.
Speaker 1:The shifts in conversation that we like to have happen here is like now managers are empowered to notice, can they have conversations that are not punitive and performance-oriented but that are actually supportive and streamline people into the wellness team by staying attuned to some of these indicators and fostering more of a culture of support From that. That's kind of individual but at a higher level. We're also pulling psychometric assessments across the business so we can look at trends. And when we look at trends we can drill down into a geography, a team, and then we proactively might flag that into a leader and say, hey, we're noticing that your team is showing some decrease in their overall resilience. We want to come in proactively and try to provide some support. So we kind of do it from this two-pronged effect to make sure that we're empowering the people that are on the ground every single day with these teams but then also know how to deploy us and pull us in, and then we're noticing trends from like a metric perspective that signal to us a need to get involved.
Speaker 2:You mentioned the word resilience. I'm sure it's core to you, know many of the ways you assess these kinds of things, but you know, once you recognize these things, what are some of the um you know, what do you do about it, what are some of the kinds of things you're offering? Because I think, to take a you know, my view of corporate wellness is, which is unfortunately really not very good there's lunch with the executives, or there's yoga, or there's none of which are bad, but I wonder if they're really going to heal demonstrably heal the situation. So, okay, I'm a lay person, I'm a lay person of lay people, so like, I literally have no idea what I'm talking about here. But you know what do you do, what's your prescription there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, agreed, I mean, you're not the only one that thinks that and feels that, and it's completely understandable. That was my view of what does a corporate wellness offering look like before I came in to task us, which is typically run by an HR team but again, it's not HR's fault. They're not clinicians. But again, it's not HR's fault. They're not clinicians. They're not able to look at something the same way that somebody with clinical background would be able to look at something. So, yeah, you usually get people who ask us like well, okay, cool, do you got like some motivational posters and you run a Zumba class and host some finger painting? And I'm like, no, that's not what we do. And those perks are nice, right, like no, there's nothing wrong with that, but they're not protective. And if you were asking somebody to do a job with innate risks, you need the structure of psychological health and safety programming baked into the system of the business to reduce harm before you try to offer relief. I always tell people like I want to meet people when they're well and try to keep them well instead of waiting for reactive. You know care to take place and the way that, I think, is the easiest thing to look to think about. It is, if you think about occupational health and safety, like you probably walk into a building any given day and don't even notice that there's, like the fire escape sign and the no slip flooring and all the things that we kind of take for granted as part of a protective system, that's required for workplace safety and hazards. And we should be taking the same approach with mental health and emotional safety, which arguably has more significant outcomes for businesses. So offering provisions is not enough. And if you don't support people with time and incentives to use them proactively and that they're baked into the employee life cycle, how you hire people, how you onboard people, how you require skill acquisition, training as a job function, it's just not going to work.
Speaker 1:And so for us, that is what we do. We hire people differently here by giving them a clear view of the risks of the job that they're doing so they can opt out. We want people to say, hey, this is not a good fit for me. We also want to be able to be transparent about. This is all the support that we offer. We immediately onboard them through the use of neuroscience techniques to help start to build skills for them when they get on the job as part of their job function. We require them to get away from their computer and engage in wellness time, where we have a licensed mental health professional teaching them skill acquisition, training to develop new neural pathways in the brain that bolster resiliency as part of their job function, and we even offer post-employment services to them. So if they say this isn't for me, I want to leave, we say no problem, but we don't want you to disrupt your ongoing relationship with your mental health provider. Please continue to see them as long as you want.
Speaker 2:Wow, it's quite an offer. Again, I'm kind of wrestling with how deep do we go down into these weeds? Because it's you know, I think that what you do for a living and what you're doing at task us has so many applications beyond the BPO world. But you know, into look, if you're talking about CX, you're obviously on some level talking about ex and what that looks like and so many of these conditions, while maybe not as acute as what you're seeing in the fields you operate in, they still exist. You know, there's still some levels of these kinds of, you know, these kinds of problems that show up.
Speaker 2:And maybe that's the next call here that we do, the next edition of this, of the podcast, of the podcast. But I'd like to talk a little bit about the ROI, if you will, of what you're doing, because I think I talked to a lot of CX professionals, a lot of executives that oversee CX operations and, look, if you're talking to anybody at the C-level, their concerns are revenue, costs and risks and that's kind of it. Those are their main lenses and with a typical C-level executive probably is not going to resonate very well, because it's going to feel like this is really deep in the weeds, and I can't deal with that right now. I got to look high level. But I'm sure that you can assess the costs associated with a deterioration of trust and safety in your workforce. I'm pretty sure that's measurable. I wonder, though, if you can measure the actual return on its improvement.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, and just kind of as an aside, quickly, we're talking about a lot of this as it relates to trust and safety and there's a lot of like ethical reasons to deploy this for trust and safety workers. But we have started to deploy a lot of this programming across the entire Taskus ecosystem, so into sales teams, into people working in financial crimes and fraud. This works for everybody, which is the great news, because the skills I mean who doesn't want to be more resilient? Who wouldn't benefit from that right? And if you're dealing with customers, even though it may not be egregious content, that's still really stressful. I mean, I'm sure you've had jobs I have too. You know, dealing directly with customers waiting tables in college and all the things right, like not everyone's super pleasant. That can be really stressful. But to your point, what is the business case for this? It isn't just a nice to have and while I agree there's an ethical reason to do a lot of this stuff, there is a significant body of evidence that links psychological safety also.
Speaker 1:Look at the business metrics. So we want to see are agents that get wellness not only more resilient and have higher compassion satisfaction, but do they also have improvements on performance metrics and the outcomes are yes by a lot. So, just as an example, the outcomes are yes by a lot. So just as an example, I'll give you some general kind of numbers here. We see any team in the Taskus ecosystem that has wellness overlaid into their program has a 3x improvement in performance metrics on average. We also see that they have a 4x improvement on their CSAT and that's directly related to customers saying I had a better experience with this person because they were more empathic, more emotionally available, regulated, whatever that looks like. And then, from a business perspective, back in Atascos, we have been tracking attrition for the last three years for those that have wellness support versus those that don't. And the ones that have wellness support have a 50% reduction in attrition compared to those that don't.
Speaker 1:And arguably you would say well, shouldn't people in trust and safety have higher attrition? The work is way harder and it's, like you know, really high burnout because of the graphic nature of the work. But the opposite is true. If they are supported well, we see them sustained in the job longer for longer tenure by six months and a 50% reduction in attrition. This saves clients millions of dollars in retraining and rehiring costs. And so, even though the perception is that the emotional load is high, which is true and real, the issue is when organizations fail to address it, then they're going to pay the price and turnover, burnout and declining service quality. So it isn't any more about what's doing right for people. It's about like if you build resilient workforces, you're going to have high performing business that can scale. And the ROI isn't philosophical, it becomes something that we can calculate.
Speaker 2:Clearly there's way more to talk about than we've booked on our calendars time for here, but I think that one we really should try and do another episode on this topic and take it where it needs to go, because there's so many really important, I think, just kind of subtopics and methods and practicalities that we really just even touched on. But for now I just want to say thanks for being, you know, really transparent with the tough stuff in the job and for the work you're doing out there, because it's real and it's important and apparently it's pretty effective. Yes, yes, no problem.
Speaker 1:I'm so happy to be here. I think it's pretty effective. Yes, yes, no problem. I'm so happy to be here. I think it's such an important topic and I love evangelizing the stuff that we're working on, because, you know, in my opinion, all of this stuff is a non-competitive space. We should all be rising to this challenge. The stakes are high. We've got new generations coming into the workforce that really expect that. You know employers are investing in this area and they're picking employers based on that. So, again, not a nice to have. It's about how do we stay sustainable in businesses and appeal to young talent in the market as well.
Speaker 2:So we'll go into all that and more and more and more in our next episode. Rachel thanks a million, Of course.
