Customerland

How To Escape “Good Enough” And Win On Outcomes

• mike giambattista • Season 3 • Episode 47

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If you’ve felt the creep of “good enough” in your marketing, you’re not imagining it. We dig into why plausible outputs are everywhere, how AI accelerates the trend, and what it takes to compete on strategic value when leaders only lean in for metrics tied to money. With Andrew Schulkind of Andigo, we get candid about the gap between process metrics and business metrics, the lure of “ornamentrics,” and the practical steps that reconnect campaigns to revenue, profitability, and customer outcomes.

We start where most frameworks gloss over: defining audience segments through real conversations. Not just with sales and success, but with product teams, long-term customers, and the ones who churned. Those insights expose the pains people actually feel and the outcomes they will pay to achieve. From there, we show how to use both fear and aspiration responsibly: articulate the problem that causes daytime heartburn, paint the future state buyers want, and keep your message grounded in what they value rather than what you want to sell.

Then we turn strategy into motion. You’ll hear a simple nurture cadence built around three core pains and three matching outcomes, each email carrying proof, a useful resource, and a micro-CTA that reveals intent. Track those signals, learn which messages trigger movement, and tie engagement to pipeline and revenue instead of vanity stats. We also talk frankly about when to step on implementation to protect strategic value and how to leverage AI without losing customer proximity.

If you’re ready to trade shiny metrics for meaningful results, this conversation gives you a clear path forward and tools you can use this week. Enjoy the episode, share it with a teammate who’s buried in dashboards, and if it helps you reframe your plan, subscribe and leave a review so others can find it too.

SPEAKER_00:

We make a distinction in our work between business metrics and process metrics. And I don't want to make it sound like process metrics aren't important at all. But when you've got someone in the room who's got uh a PL responsibility, they're really not going to pay a lot of attention until you stop talking about process metrics, you know, likes and follows and quick through rates, um, all of which are important and valuable in their own way, but they're gonna want to hear about business metrics, uh, you know, revenue, profitability.

SPEAKER_01:

Today on Customer Land, I'm with Andrew Schulkind. And um, if you would just raise your hand if you're familiar with any of Andrew's writings, because we publish them at least once a month here on the site. And um, he's always got something that seems like he's boiled the atmosphere down into things we need to pay attention to, which in marketing, atmosphere is everything. So, anyway, Andrew, thanks for joining me. Been looking forward to this for a long, long time.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh thanks, Mike. Really great to be here. Uh, excited to be here, and uh, thanks for the very kind words of of introduction. I almost raised my hand because I am familiar with uh not just my you read it, okay. I do, and um I just a shout out to anyone else who might be listening who isn't familiar with customer land that came here because of of of me. Uh, there are a lot of really great writers on that on that site, so uh definitely worth exploring.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks. We we keep trying to to figure out how we can get together physically because it would be one heck of a cocktail party. That would be a lot of fun. Oh, please do put that together. Yeah, I'll I'll have my people work on it. So recently, Andrew published, wrote an article that we published called Competing on Strategic Value in the Age of Good Enough, and it sparked a lot of conversation, some of which happened on LinkedIn, some of which happened in our office here, colleagues, because everybody's got something to say. It I'll say in complete agreement with that idea. Like, boy, there's a lot of good enough out there. But Andrew pointed out that there are some pathways to kind of identifying when you're working on a good enough, I'm doing air quotes here, you can't see it, but on a good enough basis and what you can do about it. But I think maybe just for broader introductions and context for this, Andrew, if you could just kind of tell us about your background of what you're doing at Andigo, and you know, we'll we'll kind of set things up that way.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Um, so um Andigo, uh, I'll start there. Uh Antigo is a content marketing firm that does website development as well. Uh the two really worked well together for us. We actually got our start uh in website development and have been doing it long enough that there was a big C change for us when Google, who was already dominant by the time, um caught up with the the black hat SEO folks who were putting white text on a white background and doing all sorts of other tricks, you know, behind the scenes with meta tags and um finally really made a major factor, a major signal, the content on the page. And for us, since I'm primarily a writer, that was uh pretty remarkable and really allowed us to differentiate ourselves from our competitors and really have a much bigger impact on uh the outcomes for our clients. So uh that's who we are and what we do. We work mostly with B2B businesses in the two to$25 million range. And most frequently, although we have clients across uh uh a number of industries, we really seek out working with mission-driven businesses, B Corps and other folks like that with uh multiple bottom line approach to what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, which makes these conversations, whenever we get together, all the richer because there's just so much to talk about there. Yeah. Um let's let's dive into this article and the ideas behind it. Competing on strategic value in the age of good enough. And it seems to me that we would do well to kind of just set what good enough means and maybe give some examples of that. How does that look in the real world?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so uh I think the first thing worth saying is that uh a lot of people think of this being uh uh a result of AI and just sort of the last two years and what has happened because of AI. And while AI has certainly accelerated, as it has accelerated so many things, it existed before then. Uh the beginning of the pandemic was kind of a moment where this happened, where um what we're seeing is that people with really big brains and a lot to offer, in you know, typically in the marketing world, but other areas as well, are um being devalued or there is a big change in the way their work is valued. Um, one example uh that comes to mind immediately is a um a branding expert that that is a colleague of ours who is uh losing work to not not entirely, not losing clients, but losing work because they'll take his basic work and have someone junior manage it for them and extend it. So instead of being hired to do an entire brand system that includes all the elements that they might need over the course of coming years, they'll ask him to do one one-off project, you know, design a PowerPoint template. And then some junior person in-house is going to take that information and turn it into whatever else they need in terms of collateral, collateral materials or you know, whatever else might come up, even elements for on-screen identifiers and a video site. Um, so we're seeing a lot of that. And I think that anyone who is in a creative field where there's a lot of work that goes into why you're doing what you're doing, but the output of your work is something that appears on screen, and there isn't necessarily a straight line to be drawn between those two, the two, particularly for folks who don't have the the um vocabulary to talk about, in this case design. We're seeing a lot of that uh devalued. So I think that that's uh hopefully a good example.

SPEAKER_01:

So there's I think there's a lot to talk about there in terms of what can be done, but I think maybe to just step back a few giant steps backward and talk about this idea of good enough. I mean, it's I've been hearing people in marketing talk about the new and the shiny since the you know, since I started in this space, which is a very, very long time ago. Um and uh if and that's all exciting. I have to tell you, I'm I'm excited by some of the developments that I've seen along the way, and especially what can do with AI. But it it seems to take a look back, a kind of um, you know, uh look in their view rear view mirror to go, wait a second, you know, I've kind of lost touch through these shiny and very cool and and often very efficient uh uh driven developments. I've kind of lost touch with something that was crucial. And you don't really realize it at the moment. It tends to be for me anyway, one of those reflections in hindsight going, ah, you know, there was a time when I could tell or I could feel or I could watch the glint in the customer's eye to really kind of get a sense of where this is going. So I think like the idea of you know, are we in the age of good enough? I think we've been in a very long, protracted age of good enough, but it just seems to be uh accelerated and I think much more topically relevant right now because of the massive shifts in AI. And I don't I don't need to editorialize because I think everybody in marketing would have to agree on some level with that notion. It's just it's just what do you do about it? Because losing touch with those things turn out to be critical.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and I I'm yeah, I'd love to offer thoughts on what to do about it. Before I that though, I think you hit on a really good point because it's not just accelerating, it feels like it's taken a um uh a giant leap in that. Whereas, you know, the example I just gave, where there's a really great branding person whose output is is graphic design, was, you know, for a long time being pressured by uh junior level people who don't have that that big brain, who don't have that, you know, experience and and and perspective to do the work, to do the implementation. Now we're taking like another degree of separation away from the original impetus and and um and experience to someone who maybe doesn't have any design or branding experience and just has facility with AI tools. And absolutely something is is lost along the way.

SPEAKER_01:

And and often even further removed from the customer, from the people whose work they are supposed to be affecting, which I think is the real tragedy. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

And it and it shows. I think it does show.

SPEAKER_01:

It does show. And I and I can think of I can think of uh many, many aspects of marketing where that same phenomenon has taken place. Uh instance that comes to mind is um just the over reliance on digital signals to gauge customer engagement. Right. Where, you know, look, um, they're all indicators, they're all good pointers, but uh it's not the full picture. Uh-huh. I mean, to get the full picture, you really have to be side by side in the same room somehow with your customer, um, experiencing their experience with them somehow. And, you know, lots of cool ways of doing that these days, but you know, for so many years, and it's still the case, when you're working on a digital campaign, the high-level most meaningless metrics tend to be the ones that get talked about the most and have very little to do with the end result and end effect on the customer.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, those are the the metrics that are typically easiest to come by.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And the ones that you can have the most confidence in because they're easy to come by. They're easy to, you know, they're they're things that are easy to measure, but they're not. Um, we make a distinction in our work between business metrics and process metrics. And um, I don't want to make it sound like process metrics aren't important at all, but when you've got someone in the room who's got uh a PL responsibility, they're really not gonna pay a lot of attention until you stop talking about process metrics, you know, likes and follows and click-through rates, um, all of which are important and valuable in their own way, but they're gonna want to hear about business metrics, uh, you know, revenue and profitability.

SPEAKER_01:

So we we were um we were trying to get clever a couple of years ago. I was having a similar conversation with another colleague, and we ended up with ornamentrics that that really look good. They look amazing, but you know, ultimately that's all they do is look good. Oh, that's good. I might have to borrow that. Please do, yeah, make us famous. So um, let's talk about some of the other ways. In fact, maybe we'll just bring this conversation forward into present-day AI is literally transforming everything. Is that the most overused phrase of the moment? Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, it's almost as uh overused as unprecedented was in a funny.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right. Unprecedented, and then uh we should have another one of these conversations just on the buzzwords in marketing and how they fulfalled because there are so many of them, it's its own language culture, yeah. But um, but yes, AI is going to transform the world. It actually is, it actually is, you know. Um we're having a lot of fun uh looking at and talking to business leaders who are applying AI thinking to every aspect of their business because it's literally transformative. And um, a colleague of mine, good friend of mine, um his company just raised uh I think 20 million in seed round, and um, and I thought that was interesting, and you know, sent him a congratulations note and all that. But what was really interesting was he said this company is now is an AI first company, we're building the entire model structure, people, processes, and technology around AI, which I think is really smart at the moment. I mean, those are people I don't think are looking at it from a good enough standpoint, they're really trying to accelerate. Yeah. Um, but you know, if you if you're coming from let's just say a legacy model, like marketing mostly tends to be, as many evolutions has been through, how do you avoid getting stuck in a good enough mindset?

SPEAKER_00:

That's a good question. Uh um, and I'm I'm glad you brought up that example because it is worth saying that AI remains to be seen what its overall you know transformation will look like for human beings, but there's a lot of good. There's a lot of power there that can be used really effectively. And so yeah, let's let's talk about that. Um so uh I'll talk about it in a way that um isn't necessarily AI related, though AI can um certainly help in any of these steps. And I I should also say that these concepts that I'm talking about, this sort of framework that um uh I'm going to talk about is uh not my original thinking. I wish I could find where I found this original, or I think I heard it on a podcast. Um uh, but I just have not been able to find that in my notes. So um I'll say we'll probably talk about this on a little bit more of a surface level and happy to dive deeper into it if anyone wants to reach out. But uh because just because there's so much to cover and we just don't, I don't think we we have that much time.

SPEAKER_01:

So we can talk fast, and there's no trying to talk fast.

SPEAKER_00:

Um so the the the goal of the the exercise of of putting together this framework is to focus your marketing. And because of what we've just been talking about, the goal is to focus it on where the value is. So um the first thing that we need to do, and this is marketing 101, um, is define your audience, right? So that's sort of the core. That's got to be the the center of the onion, if you want to think of it that way. Or um, I've heard people do this in, you know, in inside of a triangle and and the audience is there. So for most of us, that's probably really going to mean an audience segment, right? Because uh if you've got separate audiences, you're gonna want to do those audiences separately. And the key here really is to dive deeply. It's not just, you know, a minute ago I talked about mission business, mission-driven businesses and B2B, two to twenty-five million dollars. That's just not gonna give you enough to work with. It's a start, but you're really gonna have to go deeper. And that's why I think it's important to think about that in terms of audience segments.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and then a quick question on that one. Because I think um that's another one of these uh potentially dangerous dog-like conversations because there's so much to talk about there. Yeah, but um you know, at the initial stages of a marketing, call it exploration engagement, when you really need to find your audience, you can there are a lot of ways of doing that, and I think there's a bit of disclarity. Is that even a word? It is now okay, all right. Um with the best ways to do that, and a lot of people kind of land on persona development, which can be really interesting, but you do a lot of this. So, what's your particular method? What's your, you know, how do you define what's how does Andigo go about defining audiences and their tendencies, proclivities, and wants, desires?

SPEAKER_00:

For us, um uh we haven't had the success. And I think it's because I I don't have the experience with um persona development, as I think uh most people in the audience, this audience in particular, would would uh uh understand that. For us, it's conversations. We really want to have conversations with every different kind of role in your organization that is customer facing. Um, we even want to have conversations with roles that maybe aren't necessarily customer facing, but are having great impact on how customers are going to perceive what you do. And and so, you know, talking to a product team and what they're developing and why they're developing it, is that coming out of a conversation with anyone else or not? And of course, we want to talk to customers and prospects, long-term customers, dissatisfied customers, um, you know, everyone in between, because that to us is how you really paint the deeper picture, um, particularly if those conversations, and this can be a bit more of a challenge, um, go beyond that that first uh um uh phase of the conversation, that you know, the first part of the conversation where you're talking about, hey, I'm here to talk to about to you about how you use this product and get into the conversation that comes naturally after that, which is all right, well, what did this mean for your your firm? How did that transform things? How did that make things better? What challenges does it present? Were there training issues, all the things that um really go into what the power of of the the the product is, you know, what the outcomes your your audience, your your your clients are achieving, um, because that is what's going to tell you what's really important to them, and that's gonna be focused on. So for me, that's more uh of the approach that we take.

SPEAKER_01:

But um yeah, I I and believe me, I'm not trying to sell personas at all. I I think it ends up being kind of a default because they're they're fairly easy to come by, but they also tend to be uh, my view, you don't get enough dimensionality out of most personas. I agree. You just don't get enough there to really understand what you're working with. So maybe as a high-level starting point, that works, but with with a good CRM system and good data management and some smart people pushing the buttons there, you can understand so much more about your customers these days.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. And uh that's um not to give away the the the last act of the play here, but that's part of what we'll we're gonna talk about a little bit um as we as we get through this.

SPEAKER_01:

So um one of the things you called out in your piece is this phrase, and um I put it everywhere because I thought it was just a really intriguing um and thought-provoking idea, which is desperate marketing does not attract eager buyers. And for a marketer, you have to sit back and go, Well, I'm I don't put out desperate content or desperate headlines, or and then if you really are honest with yourself, like you really, really go honest, you kind of have to start going, Well, maybe I was a hair desperate, maybe it was desperate within a safe lane. Okay, maybe it was totally desperate. Okay, maybe I gotta change it and uh spark some unraveling there. And is that maybe that's the uh the peeling back of the onion you're talking about? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, a little. Um, I think that uh I mean, hopefully this is uh a group of folks here who are well beyond the um I don't know the marketing equivalent of the just checking in email, which is you might as well say, hey, do you have any cash for me? Right. Like that's um and you know, if you are uh committed to content marketing and uh this idea that marketing in a um, unless you're a you know a national consumer brand or just a national presence, the kind of marketing that so many of us did for so long just isn't nearly as effective uh in part because of there's that it's so there's so much compet competition, there's so much noise out there. You've really got to offer value the the vast majority of the time in the content you're putting out there. So I think that's important. And one of the ways we do that is, you know, we've got this uh audience definition that we've we've created. And to avoid that kind of desperation, we want to make sure that the next layer that we're building on top of that is the problem that they are experiencing that you can help them solve, which is very different than the problem that you want to have because you know you can you can sell that service, and uh the tactic or the solution that you want to sell because you want to sell it. That starts to me um smelling a little like desperation that is not full-on desperate pay, you know, going out of business sale, kind of desperation, everything 50% off. Um so uh coming up with uh the thing that is either giving them heartburn during the day, or it is keeping them up at night because they recognize it's holding their company back in some way, or they've just recognized that you know it's costing them money. You that's really what you want to identify uh is issues like that, really needy business issues. So, you know, for us, part of our business being building websites, it's not a website, it's you know, focusing on uh problems they have attracting the audience they want. Why is that failing? And what can we do to help it? Do we have a product that helps figure that out, diagnose it, and fix it? So um, to me, that is uh a key way of steering clear of even that somewhat acceptable desperation link.

SPEAKER_01:

Um yeah, maybe there's there's healthy levels of desperation just to keep you moving, you know. Um necessity is the mother invention after all. Maybe there's desperation baked in there. You know, one of the things I'd love to get your just opinion on anecdotally is and you mentioned a moment ago, uh if your if your unique selling proposition is more about something you want to sell rather than what your customer base really wants, the pain they need to solve, that's a problem. Um those are that is often that is often a conversation that marketers face early on in their client journeys, uh, new client, uh, whatever you're coming into, fix something that's broken. And it often kind of boils down to that, you know, what are you really offering to solve your customer's pain? So anecdotally, we're not gonna point fingers, we're certainly not gonna name names, but how often do you see that phenomena in your world? Is it is it frequent? And I'll I'll just say if I may, I'll stop talking in a minute, let you get to because we really want to hear you after all. Well, I'll just say that you know, in the startup world, especially in you know, SaaS startups, and there are a gabillion of them out there. I'm actually blown away, blown away at how many times the founder developer has built this amazing thing with very little understanding of the audience's market's needs for it. Like it's a lot, and that's just my world. What's your world?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh I I wish I could say it was enormously different. It it is maybe not quite that bad, but I mean that brings to mind the the old saw about uh um falling in love with uh a problem, not a solution. Because your solu the problem that if the problem is real, then the problem's real and it's it hasn't gone away and there's opportunity there. Your solution may not be as uh attractive to your audience as you would like it to be, just because it's your expertise and it you know is a nice brand extension or whatever the case may be, um, you you can't fall in love with that and try and and and pound it through if that's just not where the the market is.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh so how does Andigo navigate that? Because a lot of times that's the company owner, the CEO, it's somebody senior who's going, This is our thing, it's my baby, it's you know, we've built this thing with whatever. How do you do that?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I mean, honestly, sometimes it's that's an intractable problem. Like this is what they're focused on. I'm like, okay, you know, um, I can't think of an instance where it's been so uh bad that we've said, sorry, we have to walk away. There have been instances where I've pulled someone aside and said, hey, you're about to spend a ton of money doing this, and I don't think it's gonna work because there's this underlying problem. And sometimes they're like, yeah, no, we get it, but uh that's the edict from you know, corporate, you know, back in Pakima. So like we got to go do that. Um uh so yeah, that it, you know, sometimes it's ego, sometimes it's just this is how we do things and this is how we're going to do things. But our approach is to have the conversation early enough that we're we're having the conversation about what the market thinks, not just I don't, I don't, I don't want to know about your solution yet. I want to know about your what what you're seeing in the market. What are they telling you? Um, and is there anything there that we know we can latch on to as a good thing, or anything that we need to address because the market's just not getting it? Like our and maybe it's good and the market, you're just ahead of the market. We've got to figure out a way to to that to change the the way they're looking at it, or maybe it's that the market, you're just not aligned. So um, yeah, that's a tough conversation, no question.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's it's an interesting one. I've I've spoken to a few, not many, like you said, that uh folks who have walked away from client relationships because there was just that, you know, uh immovable object meets unstoppable force kind of kind of dynamic, but it doesn't happen often. Most often you can kind of figure your way around it or at least kind of do what you need to do and move on to the next problem to solve.

SPEAKER_00:

So uh speaking of the next problem, that's kind of you know, the next layer of this onion that we've been talking about is um and a and a way around that problem that we were just talking about is to um, you know, having identified this problem, you know, a real problem that is being solved, not jump right to your tactic or your solution or or you know what you want to sell, but what's the outcome? Because that's what your your your prospect is really interested in. Um at some point they want to figure out the details, the nuts and bolts of how we're gonna get from here to there. But first they want to go to there. Like what does there look like? And um focusing on identifying what that there is in all these cases, um, that's critical to to winning them over, to getting them to continue the conversation. So um I would say that um that's probably the most important next step. And it's uh is a nice counterpart that those two things work together, not just because, hey, you've identified a problem, you've identified an outcome, which of course naturally go together, but they give you two really nice uh options for your marketing, right? With the with the um the problem, you've got fear-based marketing, uh pain point-based marketing, whatever you want to call it. Um, and on the outcome level, you've got a more aspirational approach. Um, you can achieve this goal, is wonderfully powerful. So um those are the the things that we talk about, and we have just summed them up so quickly that it I I I want to make sure people understand it ain't easy. Like this is this is really hard work to get these down to such you know fundamental um issues that you you can talk about them and people immediately understand that there's not a lot of of explanation uh needed.

SPEAKER_01:

One of the things I love about um the articles that you write and our interactions when we get to do these kinds of things is that you you have a unique ability to, and I was kind of alluding to this earlier, to uh distill what's happening out in the marketing atmosphere down into things we should really be paying attention to. Like there's just so much in marketing. There are so many layers to the funnel, so many uh, you know, psychological nodes and drivers that we need to pay attention to as to how our customers are responding to our efforts and the CX and the loyalty and the data and the technology, and you know, marketing is this sprawling, sprawling place that's so easy to get lost in it. And yet I think, and and by the way, we publish all that stuff, and I think it's all useful and valuable, but once a month or so we publish something from Andy that tends to say, uh, you know, if you're able to clear the smoke and see or see above the clouds, here's a thing that you should probably be thinking about. Like in its in its utter simplicity, and like and like Andy just said, Andrew, I'm sorry, just said, this is it's not easy. It's not easy. Uh but if you can keep the principles simplistic, I think you have a shot because otherwise it's just it's a shiny object uh, you know, heaven out there.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, uh uh that's absolutely true. And I'm uh thank you first for the the very kind words. That's really Really uh lovely to hear. And it's not um an accident, honestly. I mean, like this is like uh I'd rather be known as the marketing 101 person than some, you know, uh really expert in some really esoteric field uh or of or aspect of marketing. Um, because I think it does get forgotten. I think we, you know, we do value uh specialists much more than generalists and you know, blah, blah, blah. But um, I think there's really value to looking back at uh, especially now that um uh there is so much happening so quickly, so much change. There are still these underlying marketing truths, marketing 101, you know, that that existed since, you know, John Deere Company famously put out the Harrow, I think it was called. You know, they they put a a a newsletter out, I'm sure hand-cranked printing press made it, you know. Right on the mimeograph. You know, right, before the mimeograph. Um and they sent it to, you know, their agricultural customers, right? Like farmers and um so uh those same ideas still apply. If you can, if you can, you know, meet people where they live, you're gonna do a lot better than if you're trying to get them to come to you, whether it's for a new idea or just a new way of looking at things. Um it's that that uh simplicity is important.

SPEAKER_01:

It's super important. Well, um, in the time we have left, maybe we could just kind of recap or encapsulate uh a couple of these core principles because I think the the takeaways here are uh are really important. It's it's stuff that if you're in marketing, uh you probably just want to, you know, put on a post-it and keep it next to your computer or you know, somehow keep these principles front and center. Um, and I think again, I don't want to steal your thunder because these are your thoughts and I only get to publish them. Um but um competing on strategic value in the age of good enough is a concept worth paying attention to. And if you wouldn't mind, let's recap it from there.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, sure. Let me see if I can recap it with sort of the last piece of the puzzle here, which is um an email cadence that you can build on top of what we were just talking about in terms of you know, this little triangular diagram or onion, whatever you, however you're you're thinking about it. Um, and it gets down to real marketing basics like nurture and then sell. Um uh make sure that you're uh understanding and gathering more information about your audience and what they're telling you. Um, and make sure that you are marketing the value that they perceive and that they value, not the marketing, uh not the value that you uh uh that you ascribe, you know, based on who makes the most money in your office or or whatever it might be. And that email uh um cadence is is pretty simple. You're basically you've with the the sort of three or so different um pain points that you've identified and three or so different uh um outcomes that you've identified, you can write an email about each of those. And right, so you've got six nurture emails um uh to each about each of the pain points, but you know, one is about the pain, the other is about the outcome, and you'll get a sense of what they're responding to, assuming that you've got, you know, you've you've built this intelligently and you've got uh uh calls to action or lead magnets or a combination, um, then they're gonna tell you what they value. And so now in an age of good enough, in an age where like, oh, hey, that's a great idea. Let me see if I can get my AI to do it. Um, you're providing value that they might be willing to reach back out to you for, even if that is going to be for strategic input rather than implementation, because hey, we're gonna have someone do this because they can do it good enough to use poor grammar. So I think that that's that's what's critical is gathering that information while at the same time um making it clear that there is value that you offer, that there is great deal of thought, thoughtfulness, experience that goes into um the outcome that you want to get, and that that outcome, sure, there are parts of that that you can then implement less expensively, I guess, to you know, sort of cut to the chase, um, or internally or whatever the case may be. Um, and that's that's nothing new. You know, we we were doing that for for years where we would do our very in-depth discovery process for um website development, hand it off to our client, and they would do that with uh you know the actual development work with an overseas team. So um yeah, as long as you're comfortable sometimes stepping on implementation to create uh the opportunity to provide the value, then uh you shouldn't be able to survive whatever the next 15 minutes or 15 months brings us in terms of um AI and its impact on good enough being good enough.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Because 15 months is now down to 15 minutes. It's compacted and compressed. It's it's just crazy. Well, Andrew, I um first of all, I'm really glad we finally put this together because we've been talking about it, kind of dancing around this idea for a long, long time. Um, these are always rich conversations. And again, I want to encourage you to read Andrew's. You can, he's basically got an archive of really solid marketing thinking on customer land. So you can find his work there. But Andrew, thanks. Let's do it again.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely, Mike. This has been a real pleasure. Love talking to you, as always.

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Mike Giambattista

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